In this special episode of the Design Systems Podcast, Knapsack co-founders Chris Strahl and Evan Lovely celebrate five years of the podcast and reflect on their journey from agency work to building Knapsack. They discuss the evolution of design systems, lessons learned from working with global enterprise clients, and the importance of composability, constraints, and community in driving innovation. Enjoy anecdotes from their early days and a look ahead at the role of AI and design systems in the future.
Transcript
Chris Strahl [00:00:00]:
Hi, welcome to the Design Systems Podcast. This is the place where we explore where design, development, and product overlap. Hear from experts about their experiences and the lessons they've learned along the way, and get insights into the latest trends impacting digital product development and design systems from the people who pioneered the industry.
As always, this podcast is brought to you by Knapsack. Check us out at knapsack.cloud. If you want to get in touch with the show, ask some questions, or tell us what you think, send us a message over on LinkedIn. You can find a direct link to our page in the show Notes. We'd love to hear from you.
Chris Strahl [00:00:26]:
Hey everyone. Welcome to the Design Systems Podcast. This is a really special episode for me because this is five years, which is crazy to say out loud, And so, we're going to be doing something a little bit different today. Our first episode was with my co-founder, Evan, and he's back with us for only his second episode in five years. And we're going to talk a little bit about the podcast and have kind of a meta discussion, which is somewhat appropriate because we live in the meta. But Evan, I want to just say welcome back.
Evan Lovely [00:01:01]:
Thanks. You know, with it being my second time here, I didn't even know you had still been doing it.
Chris Strahl [00:01:07]:
Yeah, right.
Evan Lovely [00:01:09]:
No, it's awesome and it's great to be able to be back and it's always really cool to hear all the conversations with all the different people across this big field that we're in gonna come up on this podcast.
Chris Strahl [00:01:23]:
Awesome. And one other note, our podcast would normally publish on Christmas Eve in late December. We're not gonna do that. And so we're gonna take a little holiday break and then come back.
Evan Lovely [00:01:33]:
So Happy New Year, everyone.
Chris Strahl [00:01:36]:
Happy New Year. So one of the things that was really funny about the pre recording for this episode is I listened to episode one again, which by the way, is still our most listened to episode with something like 14,000 listens or something stupid like that. And you didn't. And I think that that's a wonderful contrast to this conversation. So five years ago, we sucked at podcasting. It was a hack job. Thankfully we had a decent editor in Zach who made us sound okay. But overall, the podcast has changed a lot.
Chris Strahl [00:02:11]:
And I wanted to kind of go through a couple of the ways where things are really different. First of all, I think the most marked difference is we're not Basalt anymore, we're Knapsack. And I think that that's maybe the biggest thing that's changed. And I wanted to get your Take on that.
Evan Lovely [00:02:30]:
Yeah, it's interesting because I feel like we have always been trying to help the people that we were. And so what I mean by that is, you know, back in the day we were helping big companies build out design systems before it was even called design systems. We're like, we're here to help with component driven development and building all of these bricks for scalable ui. And then we start our company, Basalt, that consults those people and then helps the design system team basically either get going or take it to the next level or something like that. And during that time, of course we build out the tooling and the app that basically becomes the product Knapsack app platform for like other design system teams. And that's the thing that we had been using across several companies, projects, teams, gigs, and now basically running the product. It's basically like helping out those prior people that we were. So it's been kind of cool because it's basically like with every step it's like, how can you help more people? Right, because that's why you like Design system, right? Is you're like, oh, I can make good UI for this one site or I could make it for all these sites, right?
Chris Strahl [00:03:58]:
Yeah. I mean, you also remember like Knapsack, before it was called Knapsack was called Bedrock. And then we had that random Belgian company that like had the similar name for the similar sort of system that I don't think they ever did anything with it, but like they asked us to change the name and then we changed it to Napsack, which like, by the way, is overall a better name in a company whose name I don't remember. If you're still using Bedrock, like more power to you. But it was this whole changeover of naming that we were going through around the same time. And so we went from this company that was all about this idea of like, how do we build these bespoke structures, systems, sets of tooling as consultancy to how do we have a product that goes and fulfills this need much more broadly across the entire industry. And I think that like, there's kind of two things that I wanted to talk about here. Right.
Chris Strahl [00:04:52]:
First, in a lot of those early customers of Basalt, we ended up with shockingly huge companies that we worked with. And I remember one of the companies that we worked with that was the first time where we used a JSON schema to define a component. And I think that that has been a decision that was incredibly formative around this idea of what a design system is for us. And listening Back to our episode a year ago, we talked a lot about, like, what a component is and what a perceptual pattern is and a functional pattern and all this other stuff like that. But we didn't have a lot of conversations about the idea of a spec or the idea of like a contract that represented a definition of a data structure for one of these building blocks we were talking about. And I felt like that was a really formative idea. We had a gentleman on from Meta who talked a lot about specifications and schemas, and then we also spent a lot of time doing project work around this, and I think that became like, kind of the centerpiece of the app we were building.
Evan Lovely [00:05:59]:
I remember why we did that as well, because for that project there, what they wanted to do is release components in the design system and then the CMS that used it. It's like edit form needed to automatically populate the new things. So if the button can be small, medium, large, and then they release the ability for the button to be extra large, then that JSON schema is published along with the button, and then that CMS would then have like the extra large size option in there, because what they didn't want to do is have to update the component in the design system and then update CMS in their app to, like, handle the new piece. That was the reason behind that, that I recall, which worked pretty great and everything. But, yeah, absolutely. It definitely makes a lot of sense to have kind of this flexible spec of like, what can and can't be done by each component.
Chris Strahl [00:07:02]:
Yeah. And Sriram, if you're still listening to this podcast, which I hope you are, thank you for that. That was one of the, like, I think, formative ideas behind what we were building is that, you know, when you think about what a design system really is at its core, it's not just a bunch of stuff in design and a bunch of stuff in code. It's the connective tissue that represents a consolidated take on what you're actually building. And the way that we represent that as a spec or as a schema is a pretty fundamental take on it that is like, more interesting, more detailed, more powerful than a component. Because component can be a different thing in Figma, it can be a different thing in React, it can be a different thing in a production application as HTML and css, but ultimately the ability to define it as a schema that says these are all the different things you can do and all the different things you can change, and all the various options you can change them to has become this really powerful guiding structure for how we think about building stuff.
Evan Lovely [00:08:08]:
It's about constraints, Right. And about creativity within constraints. Because there is several things in a design system that are constraints. So design tokens, for example. So instead of basically saying the background color of, you know, the button is one of 65 million colors, you constrain it down to picking from 5 or 10 or even 100, which is a lot of colors, but is a lot less than 65 million spacing scales. Also, instead of it basically being everything, like, from one to infinity, you have basically this rhythm of size as it can be. And those constraints, the spacing tokens, they go into the buttons, sizes small, medium, large. Right.
Evan Lovely [00:09:01]:
And through those constraints, you get kind of this consistency for free, this cohesiveness across, like, the feel. Right. And so I think that that is a crucial piece. And it's always interesting to me as well, to the creators who are like, oh, I don't want to be constrained. And I think that there's definitely a sliding scale there of basically how constrained a design system is. You can have a really flexible, unconstrained system where people would rely on composition, or at the other end of the spectrum, you could have it really constrained. So you've got basically a lot of, like, kind of the art direction, like, leading things.
Chris Strahl [00:09:50]:
The idea of, like, am I building something that's like, really deeply modular with a whole bunch of different options? Or something that's a lot more integrated with the idea of how does this deliver on a specific experience? And the way I always like to frame it was kind of funny. I don't know if this metaphor ever really hit, but if you ever play with a deck of cards, a deck of cards is 13 different patterns that have four different suits, and there's some number of billions of combinations of those things. And so when we think about constraints, constraint to what is kind of the idea, Right. When you think about any single poker hand of five cards being billions of options, if we talk about even very small design system with 13 components, you're talking about billions of potential iterations of those 13 components and say, four props for how they would actually show up in a production application. Now, like, a bunch of those aren't valid and stuff like that, but the reality is that the people that say, I need, you know, 16 million colors or I need an infinite canvas, or I need the ability to do whatever I want aren't being realistic about what they can do with the constraints of a system.
Evan Lovely [00:11:06]:
Yeah. And the number of possibilities is much higher if you're like, all available CSS properties times all available HTML elements, well.
Chris Strahl [00:11:16]:
You're like the monkeys writing Shakespeare level of crazy, right?
Evan Lovely [00:11:19]:
Yeah. Speaking of the monkeys writing, this is a nice segue into AI, right?
Chris Strahl [00:11:24]:
Yeah. Here we.
Evan Lovely [00:11:26]:
Well, it's like, the thing is, okay, so if you are, hey, AI, build a landing page that, you know, talks about these three big categories that we promote, you know, A, B and C, et cetera, et cetera. Right. And so it goes off to build it, and what does it have at its fingertips? You know, it has like all available HTML elements in every single CSS property. Or maybe it's like, hey, here's all the tailwind class names. Or, hey, there's, you know, maybe these specific react components from this specific library and like, those constrain it down. It's like, okay, I went down from like every possible color and everything CSS can do down to, okay, I've got these tailwind class names. And then I think that the natural, like, next step towards that is like people's own design systems, right? And so, like, to be able to give AI some constraints, I feel is a way that you can kind of, I don't want to say control the output, but like, refine it ahead of time. Right? Because you could look at it after and be like, nope, that is off brand.
Evan Lovely [00:12:37]:
But giving it those initial constraints, I think is helpful.
Chris Strahl [00:12:43]:
Yeah. Speaking of a thing that didn't exist when we first had this podcast, right? I mean, like, AI existed, but not in the iteration that it does today. And so when I think about the idea of how to represent those constraints and how the next five years play out, AI is the first thing that comes to mind about that was massively different five years ago. And I think it's going to also be massively different five years from now. And in that delta, one of the things that I see is this opportunity for design systems to be the control point. It's not as simple as, like, here's a guardrail. It's a lot more complicated than that. But in practical terms, the design system is constraining the output of some as yet to be determined AI process for how we build product in the future.
Chris Strahl [00:13:35]:
And this is one of the really interesting things about thinking about five years ago, right, where we couldn't even conceive necessarily about what ChatGPT could do or something like that.
Evan Lovely [00:13:44]:
Right?
Chris Strahl [00:13:44]:
I. I mean, sure, some people were working on it back then, but the public writ large didn't have that in the zeitgeist. And then when we think about it now like we have all these ideas and these machinations of how we're going to build products in the future, but nobody actually really knows what that's going to look like five years from now. But the thing that still matters in that is that data asset that we were talking about. That idea of like you have a bunch of structured data that represents this combination of food for an AI as well as a control point for it. That means like the investment that we should be making in terms of how we prepare ourselves for AI is all about systems and it's all about systems that rely on this kind of data.
Evan Lovely [00:14:27]:
Yeah, absolutely. And I mean, I think to the people who are shepherds of the brand, who are curating the design system and they are wanting to make sure that the brand is represented well, you know, so use this blue, not that blue, right? And design tokens enter the stage. Right. You know, it's basically like doing things like that that's done or was done because they looked at what the designers and developers of the individual apps were doing. You're like, whoa, that's the wrong blue. And they're like, well, I needed a darker blue because that, you know, and so basically the constraints, right? And so they're trying to protect how the brand gets represented. And you know, it starts out with basically other human beings at my own company who are just trying to ship stuff. And you're like, well, let's go ahead and make sure that these are like design tokens.
Evan Lovely [00:15:25]:
Similarly. So, you know, you have someone representing the brand, but that someone is like AI. And so for some odd reason it chose the darker blue. And you're like, okay, no, actually you have to be using the design tokens. And so Instead of all 65 million colors, use one of these 10, because you can review it after it gets done or you can set it up with constraints ahead of time. Garbage in, garbage out, basically.
Chris Strahl [00:15:53]:
Hey everyone, I'd like to take a quick break and tell you about Knapsack's leadership summits. Every month we host an exclusive in person event in different cities all around the country, bringing together design, engineering and product leaders. These summits are all about sharing our learning with tailored discussions to address the challenges you're facing. The best part, it's totally free. Head over to knapsack.cloud events to find an upcoming summit near you and apply to join us. We'd love to see you there. Yeah, I mean, I think it's interesting to think about where this heads because now going from an agency to A venture backed startup looking at the future of how our product evolves. Getting funding was a major change in our journey.
Chris Strahl [00:16:35]:
And so we went from being an agency to being a SaaS product company. And as a SaaS product company, through the machinations and twists and turns of a startup, we've arrived at this point where we have lots of really big enterprise customers that rely on us to be able to build their digital experiences. And that doesn't just exist today, that also exists for the future. And we power a bunch of really big Fortune 500 brands that go out there and basically say, like, we use Knapsack to build our products and to build our software. And there's a lot of that right now that is kind of based in this vision that we had in 2017, 2018, 2019, when we were first thinking about this stuff that was all about how do we connect design and code, how do we have docs, how do we have this thing that's integrated, that is really deeply focused on shipping. That was always the core for us. It's not real unless it ships. And now thinking about what that looks like to take those really big companies that have taken a risk on us as a startup that we've been so thankful for as early customers and saying how do we bring them into the next era of what a design system is, is.
Chris Strahl [00:17:57]:
That's what I kind of wanted to get your take on. Right. Is when we think about, you know, those notebook sketches and those whiteboard moments of us in the past in like our little office in East Portland, what would you write on that whiteboard now if we were starting over?
Evan Lovely [00:18:14]:
You know, it's more of a people workflow and communication challenge than I remember I originally thought. Right. You know, it's easy to be like, build the tool and they will come.
Chris Strahl [00:18:27]:
Right, right, right. Just connect. Well, I mean, it wasn't even really dominantly figma at that point. It was still like we spent a bunch of time with xd, we spent much time with Sketch, which is like Figma, XD Sketch, like connect those and then connect to Git, Repo and then like people do the work, right?
Evan Lovely [00:18:42]:
Yeah, absolutely. And the way that the best digital products get built and shipped is a rapid iteration cycle. They put something out, they get feedback, they refine it, they put it out, they learn lessons. Rinse, wash, repeat. And I mean that doesn't necessarily have to be building in the open. Putting something out can still be internal only. There's Feature Flag, which is totally great, but still there's this refinement cycle, this iteration cycle, and it's not these big bang releases, not these big waterfalls. Right.
Evan Lovely [00:19:22]:
And so how can that get facilitated? Because I remember when we were in Basalt and we would get a new company going with their design system, one of our first goals with them was to make a pilot component. Right. And so we would tell them to make a design system that consisted of one component. And yes, it was usually the button and basically get it out. And it was more about that workflow. Right. It was like, okay, where do you adjust the code of the button? Okay, all right. How does it get published? How does it get versioned? And then how does it get, like, consumed? And then how does it get updated? Right.
Evan Lovely [00:20:06]:
You know, and yes, that's like a very technical engineering look of that, but it was also a workflow piece because it's not just about doing like a 0.1 npm package update. It's also like, how does the human that uses it hear about it from the human that made it that there's a new one? You know, like, it's like a design system gets updated in the woods. Does anybody know about it? Right, right, right.
Chris Strahl [00:20:36]:
How do you discover what's changed?
Evan Lovely [00:20:38]:
Exactly. And so not just an update occurred. But as somebody who's pulling in the design system, I'm busy. Why should I pull in that new version? Well, you know, sell me on it. And we're like, Design System 1.1 buttons now with icon support. Oh, I need that.
Chris Strahl [00:20:56]:
Right? Yeah. I think that that's also really indicative of a problem that I hadn't really thought about when we were first working on this stuff. Right. We used to think about these design systems as kind of this, like, monolithic thing. Right. Where you should encapsulate all of the decision making into a design system and everything should be a component. And I think my worldview on that has changed a lot, especially as we've teased apart this idea of, like, what's a component and what's a pattern? And so the idea of composition as a core tenant to how a design system functions. And by composability or composition, I mean the ability to, like, take one component, like a button and stick it inside of another component like a card.
Chris Strahl [00:21:35]:
Now all of a sudden you have something that exists as a more complex set of reusable components that are nested or glued together or composed. You know, a recipe, if you will, of a bunch of different component ingredients.
Evan Lovely [00:21:48]:
Yeah. Like, should there even be a card component or is that like a box component that holds like an Image, some typography and a button.
Chris Strahl [00:21:55]:
Right. And there is this interesting idea of that where you have different paces of change that a design system needs to adhere to. There's things that happen at the brand level which are typically really slow. You don't make a bunch of like big brand or big like low level interface changes all the time. It's very rare that I would say that people completely rewrite what a button is or what a core brand color is. But then fairly often you have all these things that are moving at a product level that are like product level features. And you need some way to represent those product level features that don't have the same discipline, rigor and time constraints on them that a core component does, that needs to move faster. So you simultaneously have this need to control something at the pace of brand decisions, but also innovate at the pace of product decisions.
Chris Strahl [00:22:54]:
And composability is really where we've found the answer to that. And I think that that's a really fascinating way of looking at it because we always used to talk about this as like LEGO bricks, right. Oftentimes people don't want to take the time to say like, hey, here's this LEGO set you have to go assemble. You have to go build the Millennium Falcon out of Legos to be able to do this thing. They just want to be able to take a bunch of pre built modules and stick them together. And that I think has been really revolutionary in my thinking, this idea that we can add both, we can have all these really strong constraints in some sort of foundations level system and then allow for composability at the product level that goes and solves a lot of much more fast moving problems that don't necessarily need to be as like modular, reusable and far flung as design tokens or individual components themselves.
Evan Lovely [00:23:46]:
Yeah, I think composability does help that rigidity, flexibility, spectrum piece by being able to go adjusting like the order of the items in the card, for example. And so I think composability does help with that. And recipes are nice on basically being able to say like this is how it could be put together. I think one thing that's not done often that should be, is that recipes could be distributed as well. If basically like you say, like, hey, the core design system's got the box, the image button and typography pieces, and those are the core pieces. But we have like a recipe of like a card that yes, gets exported out of the NPM package. And then if you're like, hey, can we add like a new prop for button is above text? They're like, no, that's actually just when you use the lower level pieces and then make it how you'd like, you know, so you can kind of get the people who just don't want to think about it can just use the card and then the people who want to like use the individual pieces to kind of put it together how it works well for them.
Chris Strahl [00:24:56]:
Yeah, and that exactly like that problem space, I don't think was defined in the same way because I think five years ago we were still talking about like how we don't have design systems fundamentally like coupled to the front end code that runs an individual product. That was a big challenge for a while, right, Is you would have like a WordPress site or something like that where like the components were like coupled to the theme of that WordPress site. So much of that has shifted and I think like we're better off for it.
Evan Lovely [00:25:28]:
You were talking about at the brand level moving slow and at the individual product level moving fast. And what this kind of really starts to show is like the tiers, right? This is where you could arguably be getting into like systems of systems. It's not completely unheard of at all to go, hey, there is this like unopinionated brand design system. Probably everything might be like really unadorned, you know, as far as the components. And then there's another tier down there of like for like this department or this region or this like company. And that's really another design system that just uses the brand design system. And then below that on that third tier is like the user facing applications. You know, that top is moving slow, the bottom is moving really fast in the middle, somewhere in between.
Evan Lovely [00:26:31]:
And so the top's got to move slow because it has cascading repercussions. The beauty of a design system is repeatability, but also cascading consequences. And so the challenge then is innovation. I think that that's kind of where that bottom product can really shine. I think that it's not just how does stuff go from the top down, but how can stuff go from the bottom up? So Product A comes up with a great date picker component. It handles all the weird things. And so they, it started out on, I don't know, their user profile page and then they're like, hey, let's go ahead and make it a little more flexible so we can use it on our user profile page, but also our advanced search bar. And so now it has gotten a little bit more Unopinionated, Right.
Evan Lovely [00:27:29]:
But it's still like in their app. And then the other product, completely different app, is like, we're doing a date picker. We have estimated that it will take us 10,000 human hours. And then they find out that it's already been made. And what they just need to do is basically kind of like make it so the brand colors are correct or something. Right. And so like, here we go. We're like, it started on the bottom, the user profile page.
Evan Lovely [00:27:57]:
It got lifted up. So now it's used in two spots, but on the same product. And then now it wants to basically get like lifted up even further. And so like what you kind of have is like these candidates for components. As it goes higher up, it has more stringent requirements. Like when it first started, it just inherited the colors of the primary action and stuff like that. Well, in order for it to get like lifted up, it needs to be able to make sure that whatever theme is at play or whatever products at play with the primary color, it's using that kind of stuff, right? And then maybe it gets lifted up so much that like internationalization becomes like an issue. So it's like, okay, it needs to be able to handle that.
Evan Lovely [00:28:39]:
And you know what, Maybe it's like, hey, this is the English date picker. And that's far enough, but like it still is used in more places and then maybe it makes it all the way up. Right? And so it's like it didn't start at the top, it started at the bottom. And the thing about that is it has proven its real world use as opposed to like ivory tower on down a little bit, you know?
Chris Strahl [00:29:06]:
Yeah. So that way you have this idea about, I mean, there's almost like a user empathy check in that that is kind of interesting, right? This idea that like, like not every idea that's the right idea comes from this cabal of design system decision makers inside of an organization. There's a lot of this stuff that actually is like the innovation happens at.
Evan Lovely [00:29:26]:
That very lowest level and battle tested too. I mean, something like a date picker. You're like, aha, we did it. Bug ticket. Aha. Okay, we did it. Bug ticket. Aha, we did it.
Evan Lovely [00:29:38]:
Keyboard accessibility, you know, like, there's definitely some like, realness to it surviving through those pieces. Right. So I think that like those like user apps that are like, you know, hey, for this code base, it is literally a, you know, blah, blah blah.com they should have their own components folder. Right. And so like those are candidates for A design system candidates for getting like lifted up.
Chris Strahl [00:30:05]:
So kind of to round things out, what would be one thing, there would be like a fun, like light hearted.
Evan Lovely [00:30:13]:
Shift in design systems, a confetti component.
Chris Strahl [00:30:16]:
Wouldn't that be amazing?
Evan Lovely [00:30:17]:
Yeah, we should all have confetti component.
Chris Strahl [00:30:19]:
No, but I mean, I think that there's like this really interesting trend that's happened that I think has been really cool for me is like we really found community here.
Evan Lovely [00:30:28]:
Right?
Chris Strahl [00:30:28]:
Like, that's what this podcast was kind of all about in the first place, and being able to have just an awesome group of people that make up this space. And one of the things I love the most about this podcast is the people I get to meet doing it. And then that's led me to kind of travel all around the country to do a bunch of design system leadership events. By the way, this one coming up in Atlanta where I go and I meet a lot of people I have on the podcast, some of which become customers and I get to go spend a bunch of time with a bunch of really great humans all over the planet. And that's been something that I never really expected out of this. Right. I think that you and I both came from the Drupal world, where one of the things I love the most about Drupal was the community associated with it. Being able to be a part of, like building that community around design systems and participating very heavily in it has been so exciting and so fun and I was not expecting that at all five years ago.
Evan Lovely [00:31:21]:
Yeah, it's really wonderful chatting with somebody who's gone through similar experiences. Actually, before the podcast recording began, Chris was telling me about how he's checking out yoga for some of his, like, first couple times he's been to a few yoga classes and going to check out some more. And I used to teach yoga and so I always love kind of sharing some things there. And at the end of all the yoga classes, they always say namaste. And what I always used to share with my class about, like, what like namaste meant to me is that basically like when people are going through shared experiences, then they are one, right? And so it's like in yoga, it's basically like, all right, hey, we were all here in the same place doing the same thing. And so you are one, right? And so to anybody who has ever gone on an international trip with a friend and then they get back and they try to tell that trip in any amount of detail to anybody else, it falls so short of when they talk with their travel buddy. And they're like, oh, yeah, I know. I was there with you.
Evan Lovely [00:32:38]:
I went through that same thing with you. And, you know, that can be when you come across people who are facing the same challenges trying to get design systems adopted, who have, you know, whether it is frustration or elation, there's basically like, I have gone through those similar things. And that connection you have with people who have had shared experiences is a powerful one.
Chris Strahl [00:33:04]:
Yeah. I mean, likewise. Co founder to co founder. Namaste, buddy.
Evan Lovely [00:33:06]:
Namaste.
Chris Strahl [00:33:08]:
All right. Well, hey, much love, Evan. This has been great to have you back on. Great to revisit some moments, some learnings along the way. To all the listeners out there, thanks. For five years, this is incredible. We never thought that it would ever be like this or be this big. I like to joke that I used to think that my wife might listen to a whole episode at one point and my parents would probably listen to two or three.
Chris Strahl [00:33:30]:
I can't believe a quarter million listens a year later. Here's where we're at. And so thank you all.
Evan Lovely [00:33:36]:
Thanks for sharing your ears. Have a great year.
Chris Strahl [00:33:38]:
Awesome. Well, this has been the Design Systems Podcast. I'm your host, Chris Strahl, here with Evan. Lovely. Have a great 2024 y’all. See you in 2025.
Chris Strahl [00:33:54]:
Hey, everyone, thanks for listening to another episode of the Design Systems podcast. If you have any questions, topic suggestions, or want to share feedback, go ahead and reach out to us on LinkedIn. Our profile is linked in the show notes.
As always, the podcast is brought to you by Knapsack. Check us out at knapsack.cloud. Have a great day, everyone.