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Chris:
Hey everybody. Welcome to the Design Systems Podcast. Today I'm with Ellis Capon and Nick Doman they're with News UK. Hey guys, why don't you go ahead and introduce yourself and let us know what you're all about.
Nick Doman:
Sure. I'm Nick Doman. So I'm head of design systems at News UK. It’s a new role that was put into place when we started this initiative. It's my job to steer the overall strategy and the governance sort of a system, and obviously work with all the brands across News UK to demonstrate the value and advocate for the system.
Ellis Capon:
Hey, I'm Ellis Capon. I'm a Senior Product Manager for News UK. I've been with the company for about two years now. And Senior Product Manager job with News UK is to focus on the adoption of News UK across the different products and brands, and to help really drive that value across the business and treat the design system as a product.
Chris:
Awesome. And so News UK is your guys' design system for all of News UK. Tell me a little bit about the system's origin, where it begins, what it encompasses, because like at least myself when I started to dig into the website, I was surprised at how extensive everything was and how kind of far reaching this system is. So maybe it's best to start with a little bit of background around what has been built here.
Nick Doman:
So prior to this, I worked across all the brands. I was managing a centralized design team and that was fairly unusual in News UK at the time. There wasn't a lot of cross-cutting teams, it was fairly siloed, the business units all operated independently and I could see the repetition and the cycle of the same projects and the same kind of initiatives. You know, these inevitably were built with the same basic components, even if the kind of end solution was different and nuanced. Say the audiences are different. There are differences there, but it was the same kind of basic building blocks.
Chris:
Got you. So you were the one that basically took a look at these sort of cross-cutting pieces and said like, "Hey, there's an opportunity to create a system here," and you were saying at the start that your job title was actually something that was kind of created as a part of the NewsKit project. So maybe talk to me about those very early days, those formative moments. Where there's this sort of like primordial idea of patterns and how that becomes a reality.
Nick Doman:
Yeah. So the design system was born in the design discipline. We could see those issues. We were desperately trying to improve the consistency across the products, we were trying to save time, we wanted to be working at a less reactive way, wanted to be doing more long form research and we kind of organically started building systems. It was only kind of a UI library base initially, but when there was a kind of move to restructure technology, we lobbied to create a system and get investment to actually set up an independent design system team. And it wasn't a hard sell for the business. It's a very compelling argument to work in this way. They could see the potential benefit of doing that. When we went through this restructure, we created more horizon teams and the design system team was one of those.
Chris:
Awesome. And then Ellis, what about you? What was your role in the formative stages of all this?
Ellis Capon:
So I joined six months into the project. This time two years ago really. So News UK's two and a half years old now. And I was hired in as a product manager for the design system, which I think at the time was unusual for design systems to have product managers. I don't think they're really treated too much as one. The role of a product manager, in my opinion, on a design system is all encompassing. It's your product marketing manager, you are the number one advocate for the design system too. And you are the one really trying to prove that value as we've heard about on many other podcasts and in real life experiences, getting design systems adopted, isn't easy. There's a lot that goes into it. So I think my role is really to help drive that adoption and work with the product teams to ensure that they're doing things in the right way. They're doing things in a sustainable way that we want them to.
Chris:
So from this sort of primordial, we have some patterns, we're starting to build some systems around this. We're starting to have this design-led effort that looks at the organization horizontally. And then we've done this reorganization restructuring as a business, who was that appeal made to, to actually create a design systems team? What did that conversation look like? Because you said it was relatively easy, who was in the sort of like decision making chair for that?
Nick Doman:
So I guess ultimately it was the CTO, but we had to go through pretty much all of the kind of main stakeholders in technology, had to be agreed by engineering, it had to be agreed across design and across the brands, there was a kind of semblance of a design system in the times at the time, but proposing a multi-brand system encompassing all these brands that never really worked together, was a big shift.
Chris:
Yeah, because all the soiling is something that you brought up early on where one of the headwinds, I guess, in this effort, is that oftentimes brands especially in media operate really independently. And so how did you guys go about securing buy-in for a centralized horizontal effort and moreover, how did you make it easy?
Ellis Capon:
It did take a lot of effort and I think we were super naive at the beginning that we could probably pull this off. I think the benefit comes when you explain to these brands that you've got some digital newspaper brands, you've got The Sun, The Times and then you've also got our audio broadcasting arm of the business and wireless radio and you know, they are different companies. They work in separate units. However, they essentially do the same thing, and they all require the same thing and there's a lot of cross-pollination going on between these brands. So whereas traditionally The Times are an infinite newspaper and then you also have The Sun as well but then now you've got things like Times Radio popping up, for example. So now The Times are branching into audios so suddenly there's some kind of cross pollination in offerings there. And I think that was one of the big appeals to help drive adoption and get buy in across these different brands.
Chris:
Interesting. So the actual change in the sort of dynamic of media with like multiple formats reaching different audiences, all of that kind of helps grease the wheels of major initiative that was looking at how you actually construct these experiences.
Nick Doman:
That's definitely the case. I think there's two worlds currently. There's the new media coming in, but these newspapers are old and there's people that have been around for a long time and have a lot of protection of the brands. And they're almost verily opposed to the idea that anything could be shared or should be shared across brands. They're very protective of their identities, then they are unique, there's obviously similarities, but the audiences are very different. The feel of the brands is very different and the business models are very different. You've got subscribers on one hand and you've got kind of ads revenue models on other hand and so as much as there is similarity, there's huge amount of diversity across the brands as well.
Chris:
I mean generations of history. There's a lot to think about in terms of, this as well. One of my favorite conversations I've ever had was with a design system historian that worked at a major insurance brand in the United States and it was really interesting to hear them talk about how their job was essentially the preservation of 100 year old brand. I think it's an interesting role for a design system.
Nick Doman:
You look at the Times New Roman, if you would've seen that font, it's very recognizable. These are really recognizable brands, big traffic sites. They have got a lot of history. A lot of heritage.
Chris:
So I think that's really great. Ellis, from your perspective, what was the driving force behind some of these early days and the scope that you guys really aimed at, because that was a lot of your role in this too. It was trying to sort of access here's the lay of the land, here's the understanding of what's changing in technology, what's the scope and service level that we're going to try to create for not just these brands, but the organization as a whole.
Ellis Capon:
So, as a product manager, one of your core roles is to prioritize and to make sure that you're doing things in the order in which is going to offer the most value to your end user. At the moment in design systems are end users, are designers, they are engineers, but these are providing components and tools for our customers and our readers to use and our listeners to use. So it's difficult, but we started off looking at the core components that makes up like an article page, for example, on the times or any of our publishing brands. And then we went from there really. It would've been very easy for us to go to material and just go [cool, 00:09:01] let's start to copy every single component that material have, but that wouldn't have got us to where we wanted to get to adoption wise that quickly. So that was the main driver there and then it is led on to the... Then whole of products were then soon being built out using NewsKit too.
Chris:
I want to get to the idea of adoption here in just a second, but right before we get this, I think that it's worthwhile to just talk about really that scope for a second. Because what you guys have in NewsKit, isn't just something that exists for one or two or three major brands inside of your organization. This is truly like a multi-platform, multi-national, multi-brand system that operates at pretty tremendous scale. And so I want to basically talk about the ambition of this project for a second. And when you guys had created NewsKit, your vision was to have this centralized design system that would work very whole horizontally across the entire organization. What you ultimately achieved was something that is even slightly more ambitious than that and that you're looking at something that now also has a lot of localization internationalization built into it. Can you just kind of describe for us the scale of what NewsKit encompasses right now?
Nick Doman:
Ambitious is definitely the word. And I think you know it's certainly a touch of naivety. I certainly thought that it was going to be simpler than it has proven to be. It took a solid year to build out the library of tokens initially to a point that we could say this case is for the basic requirements of each brand. And that's always been our aim is. To cover the fundamentals, but leave room for customization and extension. As I've been talking about the brands, we've had to demonstrate that we can standardize aspects, but still uphold the identity of the brands. And when it comes to the components, we put a huge amount of effort into ensuring that the components in code and the components inside are as identical as they can be. And I'm afraid you are talking about this on the previous podcast, but the similar approach is that we have to have the same props, the same naming conventions.
Nick Doman:
They would be structured in exactly the same way. The way we've managed to scale is really by looking at the infrastructure very carefully. There's been a huge amount of trial and error, but we're at a place now where we only maintain a single library of components and we provide a plugin for the consumers to theme the components. So they use this tool, they take the components, drag them to the out board theme them, they can apply the various customizations they need, and then they can export those into their own local system. And that's been a real turning point for us as well. Is this kind of idea that, yeah, we are the centralized design system team, but we are creating design systems across all the brands as well.
Nick Doman:
That's been positive in terms of adoption. It's I think enabled designers to invest more wholly in the design system. It's also allowed us to have advocates outside of the design system team. And that's been really key into being able to scale across multiple teams. We haven't scaled the central team much from the kind of early days, but the actual design systems is being used far more broadly, even outside of News UK now.
Chris:
So I think that's an actually a pretty unique perspective here. Because there's a lot of folks that look at the complexity of a multi-brand system like this and they say, "This is definitely best represented as multiple design systems," or "Let's have a small compact core of say tokens or styling, and then let's allow that core to be extended," and you guys have extensibility built into NewsKit. It's not to say that you don't, but you guys have a lot more encapsulated in your core of your system that is running a tremendous number of sites and brands than I've ever seen. Like there is a tremendous amount of componentry and tokens and power there that really represents, I would says, 80% of use cases for the vast majority of your brands. And so while brands may elect to extend, for the most part, those extensions are rather small. You guys have managed to build a centralized system that covers the vast majority of use cases. Is that a fair representation?
Ellis Capon:
I think so. I think we're always obviously getting feedback from our brands and from our users, but I think for the most part, it's definitely all encompassing, but I guess one of the things that we learned when we went to work with the brands in America, so Dow Jones for example, was that the American or U.S.A. accessibility laws are so much more strict and hold a higher level than they do over here in Europe and in the UK. So it's been a really good learning curve for us that we've gone and we've actually implemented accessibility champion, who's one of our engineers, Marco, who's now leading the accessibility on the design system front and he's working with the American guys and girls over there to then make sure that the design system that we're building is actually at the level they require so that there's no work for them to do going forward.
Chris:
That's amazing. I think that's also a really good case study of how the innovation sharing side of design systems is pretty powerful because presumably that work that you're doing in the America is to further accessibility is any baked into the system as a whole and ultimately benefiting users in the UK and Europe in general.
Nick Doman:
In retrospect, a positive approach we've taken is that we were determined not to go and build this design system in silo. So we've been constantly trying to provide value really from day one. And we build the components to the requirements of the brand that say, "If wireless come along and they need us to build an audio player," that's why we're building an audio player. It's not because we've decided that this would be a good thing in the system, everything that we're building has a direct usage. We only build things that multiple brands will be needing.
Chris:
So you'd rather lean in your approach in that you're not out there just saying like, "We need to create a bunch of UIs based on inventory that we've done. We actually need to look at these as what is the purpose of this individual component? Who does it serve? How does it serve them?" And to really be intentional about that creation.
Ellis Capon:
Yeah and I think that's where the product side of it comes in and the prioritization part comes in and that helps inform our roadmap. So we keep our roadmap publicly available on the site. That roadmap isn't just mine and Nick's brained up. Promise it's a wealth will out roadmap.
Chris:
So on the product management front, this is an interesting part of the story as well. You're a product manager for a design system that is completely and extremely focused on how you serve the needs of your users and what those needs are, how you develop a roadmap that is going to best face all these different goals that your design system is set out to do that sort of professionalization of product management and product ownership for design system. I view that as essential or key to the outcomes you guys have achieved where it's not about just like, "Let me have somebody that has some product ownership inside of a brand," this is a product ownership of the system. And ultimately your users are all these different consumers. Talk to me a little bit about how you view your NewsKit system through the lens of product management. What is it that you really view as like the core decision making process for how this grows and changes?
Ellis Capon:
For example, we work with these various different brands, audio, newspaper brands, and whoever else, B2B brand in Dow Jones as well. And when we're working with them, it might be that The Times are looking to maybe do some kind of text speech audio on their article so that you can go to the art school, click play, and then the article will be read out to you by some kind of program in the background. So they need an extended audio player than what we have now. And then Factiva from Dow Jones might say the same thing so that then informs. There's two brands here that want the same thing. How does that actually line up on our roadmap? So maybe that then informs a priority to be higher than something else, for example. But at the same time, the product management that is going on here, isn't just around the prioritization. Like that's probably the easier part.
Ellis Capon:
I find it's the advocating, being that advocate, being that person who's almost like a product marketing manager as well, to be honest. Who's putting the name out there and really trying to help drive that value and demonstrate that value through building other products and working with other product teams. So for example, our wireless brand, so working with them to help them build web platforms and advising what might be the best approach or best way of building that platform using the design system, of course.
Chris:
And that's kind of what I mean by the idea of professional product management. Not to say that doesn't exist in other places, but a lot of organizations view the product management and product ownership of the design system is effectively requirements management and prioritization. And there's a lot of this. That is also about resource allocation, about marketing the design system about really focusing on that adoption, even thinking about like what sort of metrics you have. When you think about that adoption as sort of a past future story. I think that we've got a good understanding of how you guys got initial adoption of the design system. Where are you guys at now and where do you see that heading in the next 12 months as this continues to grow mature?
Ellis Capon:
It's changed dramatically over the last year. It's really accelerated, but at the very beginning, sort of nine months in The Times radio projects' kind of kicked off. They wanted to use our design system, but NewsKit was on the version 9.3. I think at the time it was really not mature enough. And the struggles I think, and the feedback were super valuable in helping us plan our design system going forward and steering it in a different direction to maybe we thought it was going to be going in. And we were desperate to show this value from the design system that we spent 9 months, 12 months building.
Ellis Capon:
But the truth was that I don't think we just weren't there yet, but it was a super valuable experience and fast forward another year and wireless are launching their Virgin Radio products and built out completely using our design system. And we know we have a second team. We have a render team, which is like a sitter team to our design system team, who they build out features rather than the individual components themselves, this core platform that they've built, contains all the design system components and then everything else they need to launch a website. All your tracking integrations, everything like that as well. So that was a massive milestone for us too to be honest.
Chris:
So that maturity gap that happened in like a year or less went from having something that... Like you said, you were kind of desperate around this early version of this design system and this something that ultimately became the cornerstone of a lot. How did you guys justify that? There's a lot of KPIs and strategy and stuff that gets attached to that conversation. When you say, "We're going to take a major launch for brand," or "Relaunch of a brand and build it from the beginning with the design system in mind," what do you track on that?
Ellis Capon:
The wireless web platform is interesting one, because they've got a number of brands, they're all radio stations or TV stations. And they all have very similar needs. So this first iteration of the wireless web platform was built using the NewsKit. It uses all our systems. The cell was from us. Use this. Use NewsKit and you'll build it a lot quicker. And that happened. They launched a whole website within a few months, which is brilliant, but the value and the KPIs comes next. I don't think we're quite there yet on some of them. I can talk about some of them in a second, but they're launching their second radio station on the platform in a number of months. And the idea being is that cost saving from project A to project B, that's going to be the massive value that we can go to our CFO and say, "Hey, look, we've just delivered this website in this period of time. It would've taken us this long. And here's the proof."
Chris:
And you wrote this wonderful medium piece that takes a look at those different measures that you think about, like the use of components, the pace of development NPS, which was one that I was excited to see in there. Contribution adoption, I think that all these are really great measures. What's in place right now, and what is more future looking?
Ellis Capon:
I'd say now we have the performance of the core web vital scores. So that's another massive part. Our brands rely on being at the top of the Google search results. So all our components are super performant. That's a massive one that we track. Contributions is obviously important and we're not just saying code, we're thinking pattern contribution it could be just a bug fix, but all this contribution helps kind of tell us how far into the design system our colleagues are.
Chris:
Let me dive into that for just a quick second before you move on because I view this as essential. A living breathing well adopted design system has a lot of contributions flowing in from all sorts of folks. Not just folks that are on in the engineering or design front, but folks that you wouldn't anticipate being able to make a contribution to the design system. Be that like a docs edit or something else like that. What is you guys' viewpoint on that democratization piece of this? Has that been something that you've seen a lot of success with in seeing like people that are not a part of your core team or maybe not even a part of the design and engineering teams, making contributions to Newskit?
Nick Doman:
Not so much outside of the design and engineering teams, but we have had some success within design engineering teams kind of across the board. Certainly in terms of component specs, in terms of patterns, one of the designers from another team recently contributes a performance pattern which was excellent. We've had certain amount of contributions from engineers that might be bug fixes or enhancements to components that are being used within their projects.
Ellis Capon:
I think, the bug fixing is a big one because it gets the engineers hands on in the code and we're actually imminently open sourcing NewsKit is as well. So, why can't NewsKit be the design system for publishing immediate brands going forward? And that's the kind of hot line we want to plug. And it'll be great. It's wishful thinking, but let's see what happens and let's see if we can get any contributions from people elsewhere.
Chris:
No, but I mean, that's exciting because you guys work with dozens of brands and presumably hundreds of agencies and all sorts of other organizations really look to you guys as people that care about design and people that care about user experience and people that are leaders in that area. And I think that much like material or carbon or ants or any of the other big design systems that are out there, there's definitely a space for a media design system that people can look at as well constructed and easy to adopt. I look forward to seeing when you guys start to get that open source project out there, because I really do view design systems as these sort of community projects often times within organizations and eventually you can get to a point of maturity where they can start to become community projects outside of your organization as well. And it sounds like you guys are on the cusp of that.
Ellis Capon:
Hopefully. My fingers are crossed.
Nick Doman:
I hope so.
Chris:
Would you say, "That's the next stage of adoption?" You've got all these for brands that are sort of like your home base. The Folks, The Times, The Sun obviously the main site that are kind of a part of the core. And then you're starting to look at brands in the Americas, which they're not divorced from you guys in any way, but that's like one further bridge you have to go. Do you view that next bridge as the greater media community or you guys still looking at like, "I have another expansion to go even within the news organization?"
Nick Doman:
I think we certainly have facts to go within News Corp. This is I think the first time that a project like this has been taken on in a global way. We're working on a pilot at the moment to see if we can set up a satellite design system team in another organization. So outside of News UK within the News Corp umbrella. Who'll be kind of a mirror of our render team. So we'll have this central design system team, we're still going to be supplying those dumb components, make them as flexible as we can, but then we'll have these other teams, these organization level design system teams that are actually responding to the needs of their specific org.
Nick Doman:
So, that might be developing full features, they might be specific components or modules that are only required in that organization or on the face of it are only required in that organization. And the idea is that they can then contribute that back into the system, if it is something that's required across other organizations. And it just opens the door to sharing a huge amount of insight and research and work across the board.
Chris:
That research, that data, that understanding of how you sort of federate the adoption and the contribution is sort of the next level. That's an interesting part of the story because what you guys have leaned on very heavily so far, is this strongly controlled, strongly held central system that has a lot of the ability to democratize that contribution. And now what you guys see is the next step that I'm hearing is we actually have to federate that a bit more. We have to start to get out there either because of regions or brand needs or feature needs. And we're going to do that by taking the model that we have. Where we have essentially a design system team and a feature team, a release team is, I believe what you said. Then using that as a model that can ultimately work in different geos and for different groups.
Nick Doman:
Exactly. So it's something that we've been increasingly trying out within News UK. So we actually recently developed an account solution. This isn't a kind of customer facing part of the websites so much. So it's an easier sale to get the brands on board with that kind of idea that we could create a shared feature. As the brands get more used to that, the idea that they can share the underlying fundamentals of a feature, they can iterate on it and they can customize the basic feature is shared and maintained in a single location. There's a massive amount of value in that. And it's really, really powerful. And I think that's definitely where we want to take it next to see how much we can push that side of the system.
Chris:
And there's a data story there too. I think this gets back to some of the KPIs that Ellis is talking about. Is if you're able to back up a lot of that centralized fundamentals with great data that shows that this is more performant, this is like leading to better design or better implementations of design or it's leading to better apps built faster. That's kind of the story you're trying to tell in terms of securing buy-in more broadly across the organization.
Ellis Capon:
Absolutely. I mean with the account and in particularly, we built the account once and using our theming system that we've built now, seven or eight brands across the UK are going to be using it. So very crudely, you can say that's a seventh of the cost saved. That's a sort of thing that we're looking at really. And The Time's market is much quicker.
Chris:
And I think that's been the interesting part of the story is talking about your KPIs too about... Look, we've been able to build all this value into the system and the unlocks of that value have played out and born out in data that show that this is working and that continues to get more buy-in from the organization to further spread what you guys are doing across this thing that was traditionally, a very siloed side of institutions to be a broadly horizontal swath across the whole News Corp organization. That's really cool.
Nick Doman:
It's really cool.
Chris:
I think that one of the things that I am kind of curious about too, is how do you guys measure adoption when it comes to the use of the system? Because this is something we're very on about at Knapsack is that, what Sparkbox put out there in the world, what Foresters put out there in the world is that design system adoption is the number one metric that is correlated with the success of a design system and future and value and investment in it. And so when you think about that adoption piece of it, what do you guys really look at when you say, "This solution is very well adopted in this brand, but it's still got growth room in this other brand," or you guys like at that level of slicing yet.
Ellis Capon:
So I think we're at a point at the moment where we haven't got the granularity that we want, to be honest. And at the moment we do just say a product is using NewsKit. So that tick, there we got, that's one scratched off, but what we are looking into and there are some blogs posts out there, Christian [Restelli 00:29:55] who used to work for Bedu, he wrote a really great piece on being able to track that level of option in code throughout the system. And that's where we want to get to. The difficulty that we face, as we've mentioned before, is that we are working across so many different code bases and we've got dozens of brands across News Corp. So that might be a bit more tricky, but we're certainly looking into that kind of more granular approach to tracking adoption.
Chris:
I think there's an entire conversation we could have about the distribution methodology for your guys design system because I view that as this really essential piece. If you think about a design system in [Forex. 00:30:33] You have the design side of it, which is that asset management and that sort of thing. You have the coded component side of it, which is like, "How do I actually get that design and code to interlink?" There're the docs because you need to write stuff down and then there's the distribution and the distribution for you guys, I imagine is complex in that you're distributing token sets, you're distributing components, you're doing that localized and extensible across a globe. Maybe just touch on that for a second because I think that from a technical perspective, that's an interesting problem that you guys have had to solve.
Nick Doman:
A real turning point I think for us was adopting Figma and certainly across design that's really helped with the distribution of the design libraries. We still have issues. At the moment, we're trying to move all of the organizations in News Corp into an enterprise account rather than individual org accounts. But that is a huge step on from where we were. Initially where we were really maintaining multiple design libraries. And, it was a huge amount of overhead in that, as I said, we have a single component library, we use the plugin that we've developed to theme the components.
Nick Doman:
We supply icon libraries, theme files, and also other kind of templates and ways of working documentation that designers can pick up. From a code side, it's npm. Don't know if we mentioned it is only web based at the moment. So that's another avenue that we're starting to look into now, it's all a react rep based library, but obviously we want this system to be all encompassing and across every platform. So we're now investigating where we can take that obviously into the native mobile space but TV is another one that we want to be looking at.
Chris:
So as you think about that sort of future vision and that next level for you guys, if we're going to have this conversation a year from now, again, what would you like to be looking at in the rear view in terms of things you guys have been able to do?
Nick Doman:
I would love to see more adoption across News Corp. I think it makes absolute sense for that to be the kind of goal. And I think if we can prove it out, if we can make a success of this initial collaboration between two organizations, I think that's probably incentive enough to get a load more brands that separate organizations on board, really excited about be open sourcing. And I think I'd love to see how that evolves and versus adoptee outside of News UK and News Corp even. That will be a huge turning point for us. And if we can look back for it in a year and see that somebody else is using it, that would be a big win.
Chris:
I love the idea of somebody you don't know, or doesn't work in the same building or office or for the same legal entity as you, consuming your system and getting value out of it. I think that's a really special thing when it's somebody that you have no idea who this person is and they found your system and they've decided that it's something that provides them value. I always thought that was like some sort of special moment.
Ellis Capon:
Definitely and I think as well, seeing all the brands properly adopt it across the whole board across the U.S. And the UK, for example and then being able to tell that story and being able to look back and say, "Cool, the core web websites for these products have improved and what's changed," hopefully it'll be the fact that NewsKits more integrated into their systems and I think that'll be a nice thing to see as well in the year's time to look back and say, "Cool, these websites are much better products because of us," I think we can see a point going forward where driving adoption and marketing the design system as a product won't be needed as much. The idea being that all our advocates that were going to be onboarding onto the design system and things. They will be those marketing people for us. Hopefully fingers crossed, the role that I'm in now won't be needed as much as the design system becomes a core part of the News Corp strategy. So I think it might evolve and change a bit as well.
Chris:
Well, Hey, all thanks so much for being on the show today, much appreciated. Thank you for taking your time, sharing your story. This has been a really great conversation and maybe I'll see if we can schedule something for years so that we can see how we've done.
Ellis Capon:
Absolutely. Sounds great, Chris.
Nick Doman:
It was an absolute pleasure. Thank you.
Speaker 1:
That's all for today. This has been another episode of the Design Systems Podcast. Thanks for listening. If you have any questions or a topic you'd like to know more about find us on Twitter @TheDSPod. We'd love to hear from you with show ideas, recommendations, questions, or comments. As always, this pod is brought to you by Knapsack. You can check us out @knapsack.cloud. Have a great day.
